Professor Wole Soyinka has warned about the dangers of being enslaved forever, if Nigerians don’t stand up and fight any move to change the constitution to facilitate a third term in office for President Obasanjo. Like the legendary Bob Marley and the Wailers, Soyinka is urging Nigerians to “get up, stand up and fight for your rights.” Quoting a proverb about the urgency of a collective battle against third term, Soyinka said: “The Yorubas have a saying that, if the heavens would fall, it is not a one man’s problem. It is a collective effort.
“If the people of this nation decide that they want to make the mistake of an unthinkable precedent being set and they are not prepared to get up and fight it, then they should understand that they are in danger forever.
“Because the next person who comes in will write his or her own constitution, and that person would say: ‘What did you do, what did you say, when the last incumbent rewrote the constitution?’ So, for me there is no choice. Any attempt to tamper with this constitution for the sake of the prolongation of the tenure of any individual has got to be resisted. This is the message we are sending to the nation.”
Soyinka sent his message during an interactive session on critical national issues with top journalists on Wednesday night shortly after the eclipse of the sun and the ominous disappearance and arrest of Charles Taylor.
On the spate of kidnapping in Nigeria, Soyinka says: “Anybody who has not worked out the intransigence of the militancy going on in the petroleum-producing areas, who has failed to link it with the uncertainties of Obasanjo’s posture is very politically naïve. In other words, I see a connection between the fear of the militants in the Delta region and the issue of third term.”
The Nobel laureate says for peace to reign in the oil-producing areas, there is the need to allay the fears about the so-called third term agenda.
He urged President Obasanjo to “come out boldly to say stark and unambiguously that I am not running and anybody who says I should run or promotes my running, I am going to set EFCC on them to investigate their bank accounts.”
He warns that “there would be serious civil crisis if Obasanjo insists on manipulating the constitution to stay in office.
“And the solution in oil-producing areas, I am sorry, is not being promoted by the perception there that Obasanjo wants to stay on.” Below are excerpts from the question-and-answer session with Soyinka:
“If the people of this nation decide that they want to make the mistake of an unthinkable precedent being set and they are not prepared to get up and fight it, then they should understand that they are in danger forever.
“Because the next person who comes in will write his or her own constitution, and that person would say: ‘What did you do, what did you say, when the last incumbent rewrote the constitution?’ So, for me there is no choice. Any attempt to tamper with this constitution for the sake of the prolongation of the tenure of any individual has got to be resisted. This is the message we are sending to the nation.”
Soyinka sent his message during an interactive session on critical national issues with top journalists on Wednesday night shortly after the eclipse of the sun and the ominous disappearance and arrest of Charles Taylor.
On the spate of kidnapping in Nigeria, Soyinka says: “Anybody who has not worked out the intransigence of the militancy going on in the petroleum-producing areas, who has failed to link it with the uncertainties of Obasanjo’s posture is very politically naïve. In other words, I see a connection between the fear of the militants in the Delta region and the issue of third term.”
The Nobel laureate says for peace to reign in the oil-producing areas, there is the need to allay the fears about the so-called third term agenda.
He urged President Obasanjo to “come out boldly to say stark and unambiguously that I am not running and anybody who says I should run or promotes my running, I am going to set EFCC on them to investigate their bank accounts.”
He warns that “there would be serious civil crisis if Obasanjo insists on manipulating the constitution to stay in office.
“And the solution in oil-producing areas, I am sorry, is not being promoted by the perception there that Obasanjo wants to stay on.” Below are excerpts from the question-and-answer session with Soyinka:
How do you see the story of Charles Taylor vanishing and his subsequent arrest?
Soyinka: I am trying to digest the second act. The first act took place before I got on the plane. I just arrived a few hours ago. And I said, ‘Here we go again. Alams Episode 2. This time in reverse. Little knowing that there is going to be Act 2 of Episode 2. And that took place in Maiduguri. And I said at the time of Alams: You people wouldn’t believe in ekpe. (African magic).
This is the time you would learn. If you remember, the present head of state, Olusegun Obasanjo, when he went to South Africa at one time, when Mandela was still in jail as a member of the Eminent Persons Group, he said: “Where are we, we Africans? With all our juju, ekpe, ofor, ase, etc.” And so, I think we should ask Obasanjo about what was used—this vanishing trick—where Charles Taylor was last seen in Calabar and resurfaced in Maiduguri. I think, you will find that there is some African juju going on, which the United Nations would not understand.
Whoever broke the chain of command of the ase, we would have that person to thank for not making us look absolute idiots in the eyes of the world. I am sorry that Milosevic is dead. I would have loved to have a secret tape recorder where they share the same cell and compare notes about their crimes against humanity to see what they have to say to each other.
Soyinka: I am trying to digest the second act. The first act took place before I got on the plane. I just arrived a few hours ago. And I said, ‘Here we go again. Alams Episode 2. This time in reverse. Little knowing that there is going to be Act 2 of Episode 2. And that took place in Maiduguri. And I said at the time of Alams: You people wouldn’t believe in ekpe. (African magic).
This is the time you would learn. If you remember, the present head of state, Olusegun Obasanjo, when he went to South Africa at one time, when Mandela was still in jail as a member of the Eminent Persons Group, he said: “Where are we, we Africans? With all our juju, ekpe, ofor, ase, etc.” And so, I think we should ask Obasanjo about what was used—this vanishing trick—where Charles Taylor was last seen in Calabar and resurfaced in Maiduguri. I think, you will find that there is some African juju going on, which the United Nations would not understand.
Whoever broke the chain of command of the ase, we would have that person to thank for not making us look absolute idiots in the eyes of the world. I am sorry that Milosevic is dead. I would have loved to have a secret tape recorder where they share the same cell and compare notes about their crimes against humanity to see what they have to say to each other.
The fear is that, by the time PRONACO would conclude their position on the constitution and whatever resolution they would come up with, third term would have become a reality. Perhaps, the incumbent President would by then have been guaranteed the presidency. How do you respond to this possibility?
Nigerians should gird themselves for the unthinkable. From what we have learnt again and again in this country, is that the unthinkable is always attemptable. PRONACO is going to come out with a constitution. This exercise is geared towards the next election.
Not principally, but this is one of the guiding factors for the deadline, for the presentation of a document to the nation. And the people of this nation would be involved in the exercise at various levels. They would then be asked to decide whether this is a genuine constitution, whether it is preferable to the one that is being imposed on the people and which is being tinkered with, and we would invite them to defend their choice.
The Yorubas have a saying that, if the heavens would fall, it is not a one man’s problem. It is a collective effort. If the people of this nation decide that they want to make the mistake of an unthinkable precedent being set and they are not prepared to get up and fight it, then they should understand that they are in danger forever. Because the next person who comes in will write his or her own constitution, and that person would say: ‘What did you do, what did you say, when the last incumbent rewrote the constitution?’ So, for me there is no choice. Any attempt to tamper with this constitution for the sake of the prolongation of the tenure of any individual has got to be resisted.
This is the message we are sending to the nation. We don’t want to give this message empty-handed. What we are going to say to the people is that: This is the kind of document, which you can use to protect yourself against this kind of criminal manipulation. With that document in hand, which is actually coming from the participation of the populace of this nation at the very grassroots level, we believe they would be encouraged to defend the implications of that constitution. We have thought of so many ways, which this so-called third term agenda can be effective. I believe the only ones that can succeed are very frightening. The ones which are apparent and also frightening because I believe we have enough people of integrity in the legislative houses who cannot be blackmailed to resist it, but the scenario which can make this happen—a couple of scenarios—those are very frightening.
But I believe that people who are obsessed with power are capable of doing anything. I think that is one lesson which I would want the people of this nation to understand. That people who are really obsessed about power—can be dangerous. I have written about power on many levels. In fact, my next book is deliberately coming out at this time in the next few weeks. It is about power. We are going to conscientisize people about the impossibilities and the probabilities of power pursuit. We are witnessing it in our time.
Nigerians should gird themselves for the unthinkable. From what we have learnt again and again in this country, is that the unthinkable is always attemptable. PRONACO is going to come out with a constitution. This exercise is geared towards the next election.
Not principally, but this is one of the guiding factors for the deadline, for the presentation of a document to the nation. And the people of this nation would be involved in the exercise at various levels. They would then be asked to decide whether this is a genuine constitution, whether it is preferable to the one that is being imposed on the people and which is being tinkered with, and we would invite them to defend their choice.
The Yorubas have a saying that, if the heavens would fall, it is not a one man’s problem. It is a collective effort. If the people of this nation decide that they want to make the mistake of an unthinkable precedent being set and they are not prepared to get up and fight it, then they should understand that they are in danger forever. Because the next person who comes in will write his or her own constitution, and that person would say: ‘What did you do, what did you say, when the last incumbent rewrote the constitution?’ So, for me there is no choice. Any attempt to tamper with this constitution for the sake of the prolongation of the tenure of any individual has got to be resisted.
This is the message we are sending to the nation. We don’t want to give this message empty-handed. What we are going to say to the people is that: This is the kind of document, which you can use to protect yourself against this kind of criminal manipulation. With that document in hand, which is actually coming from the participation of the populace of this nation at the very grassroots level, we believe they would be encouraged to defend the implications of that constitution. We have thought of so many ways, which this so-called third term agenda can be effective. I believe the only ones that can succeed are very frightening. The ones which are apparent and also frightening because I believe we have enough people of integrity in the legislative houses who cannot be blackmailed to resist it, but the scenario which can make this happen—a couple of scenarios—those are very frightening.
But I believe that people who are obsessed with power are capable of doing anything. I think that is one lesson which I would want the people of this nation to understand. That people who are really obsessed about power—can be dangerous. I have written about power on many levels. In fact, my next book is deliberately coming out at this time in the next few weeks. It is about power. We are going to conscientisize people about the impossibilities and the probabilities of power pursuit. We are witnessing it in our time.
If you are to write the story of Nigeria, who are you going to express disappoint mostly with? Is it Abacha or is it Obasanjo?
Disappointment is a very mild word. Disappointment is a very innocuous kind of emotion or attitude. I am not going to make comparisons right now. I know what you mean exactly. The word I would use is much stronger than disappointment in the comparison between the two.
Disappointment is a very mild word. Disappointment is a very innocuous kind of emotion or attitude. I am not going to make comparisons right now. I know what you mean exactly. The word I would use is much stronger than disappointment in the comparison between the two.
You are talking about scenarios. Maybe you can help us elaborate, so that when the scenarios begin to play out, we would have an idea of where they are actually going.
Well, there is special expression. It’s rather like calling down disaster on your head by naming the nature of the disaster. Let us just say that we don’t want to put ideas in people’s heads. And also we don’t want counter preparations to be pre-empted. Some of us are thinking ahead of the other side. But believe me, there is a frightening scenario.
Well, there is special expression. It’s rather like calling down disaster on your head by naming the nature of the disaster. Let us just say that we don’t want to put ideas in people’s heads. And also we don’t want counter preparations to be pre-empted. Some of us are thinking ahead of the other side. But believe me, there is a frightening scenario.
What is your assessment of the census?
I receive an e-mail urging people to support the census and so on and so forth. This was long before the census actually began. And I replied to this faceless person: I said, why are you conducting this census? What is the whole point of a census? A census exercise is not just about numbers. It is about knowing the nature of who you are, collectively, what you are. A census is a serious exercise. You can tell people to come out of their doors one day. That’s one way of doing it.
They have this new satellite thing roving all around. You can know that instead of a one-week curfew. You can order that everybody must come out of their houses, wherever they are. And this satellite would go ahead to take photographs and they would enumerate those photographs. They can tell you how many people were eating moinmoin in a certain spot in the world on that day. So, that is one way of doing it—if it is a question of numbers. There are much cheaper ways of doing the census. Obviously census is not about numbers.
It’s about who we are. And when this regime decided to carry out a census without details such as ethnic origin, nationalities, religion—these are critical factors, even in the organizing of a community. When the government runs away from issues like that, it means it is not being honest. Or else, it is calling us second class citizens. That we are not mature enough to handle facts about ourselves. I find it personally insulting. I don’t know about the rest of the nation. But I find it insulting that you will cut off a certain part of our identity in relation to other identities in the nation.
This is what census is about. It’s about how many women? How many children? It’s not just religion and ethnic nationality alone. These other facts go into the statistics and build up a portrait of a nation. And this is what census is about in the most profound level. So, from the very beginning—in fact we debated it in PRONACO. That we stopped talking about it is simply because we realized that certain sections of the Nigerian community could not understand the issues. They don’t have enough time to educate the Nigerian population about why they should boycott the census.
The exercise from the very beginning was doomed to be unsatisfactory. After all these years, don’t you think we really owe ourselves the responsibility of doing our census properly? Even if it takes two years, from the beginning of planning to the end. And so, you can add any number of days. You can continue to curfew all of Nigeria for the next three weeks, just leaving a slight gap for Taylor to escape.
I receive an e-mail urging people to support the census and so on and so forth. This was long before the census actually began. And I replied to this faceless person: I said, why are you conducting this census? What is the whole point of a census? A census exercise is not just about numbers. It is about knowing the nature of who you are, collectively, what you are. A census is a serious exercise. You can tell people to come out of their doors one day. That’s one way of doing it.
They have this new satellite thing roving all around. You can know that instead of a one-week curfew. You can order that everybody must come out of their houses, wherever they are. And this satellite would go ahead to take photographs and they would enumerate those photographs. They can tell you how many people were eating moinmoin in a certain spot in the world on that day. So, that is one way of doing it—if it is a question of numbers. There are much cheaper ways of doing the census. Obviously census is not about numbers.
It’s about who we are. And when this regime decided to carry out a census without details such as ethnic origin, nationalities, religion—these are critical factors, even in the organizing of a community. When the government runs away from issues like that, it means it is not being honest. Or else, it is calling us second class citizens. That we are not mature enough to handle facts about ourselves. I find it personally insulting. I don’t know about the rest of the nation. But I find it insulting that you will cut off a certain part of our identity in relation to other identities in the nation.
This is what census is about. It’s about how many women? How many children? It’s not just religion and ethnic nationality alone. These other facts go into the statistics and build up a portrait of a nation. And this is what census is about in the most profound level. So, from the very beginning—in fact we debated it in PRONACO. That we stopped talking about it is simply because we realized that certain sections of the Nigerian community could not understand the issues. They don’t have enough time to educate the Nigerian population about why they should boycott the census.
The exercise from the very beginning was doomed to be unsatisfactory. After all these years, don’t you think we really owe ourselves the responsibility of doing our census properly? Even if it takes two years, from the beginning of planning to the end. And so, you can add any number of days. You can continue to curfew all of Nigeria for the next three weeks, just leaving a slight gap for Taylor to escape.
Are you saying the census should be cancelled?
I have never said for a moment that the census should cancelled, because I wasn’t here during the census period. I arrived this afternoon. But I wouldn’t say I would be the least surprised if this turns out to be another exercise in futility. There are ways you can check even the figures. There are many, many parameters by which you can know whether figures are of any value, any validity or they are just rubbish. I leave that to demographers to comment. I am just saying that we have been shortchanged. The same amount of money could have been used.
You will not need to expand the expenditure to put in those parameters about who we are. Not just how many are we. Why did the government choose to renege on this simple civic responsibility? Why? What’s behind it? Those who go and cut the throat of other religionists don’t say, ‘Can I look at the census parameters? Can I see your census card?’ No, no, no. They have their own instant parameters for deciding whether you are due to made suya or to be made something else. So, what exactly is this government afraid of by shortchanging us? The exclusion of these parameters is an insult to the intelligence of Nigerians.
I have never said for a moment that the census should cancelled, because I wasn’t here during the census period. I arrived this afternoon. But I wouldn’t say I would be the least surprised if this turns out to be another exercise in futility. There are ways you can check even the figures. There are many, many parameters by which you can know whether figures are of any value, any validity or they are just rubbish. I leave that to demographers to comment. I am just saying that we have been shortchanged. The same amount of money could have been used.
You will not need to expand the expenditure to put in those parameters about who we are. Not just how many are we. Why did the government choose to renege on this simple civic responsibility? Why? What’s behind it? Those who go and cut the throat of other religionists don’t say, ‘Can I look at the census parameters? Can I see your census card?’ No, no, no. They have their own instant parameters for deciding whether you are due to made suya or to be made something else. So, what exactly is this government afraid of by shortchanging us? The exclusion of these parameters is an insult to the intelligence of Nigerians.
How do you see the detention of Fasehun, Gani Adams and other ethnic leaders?
It’s a deliberate attempt to gag people. Ethnic nationality voices like Uwazurike, Dokubo, Fasehun, Gani. It’s no accident that they are charged with offences that are unbaillable. I was involved in the recent negotiation of the hostage saga and it is very sad, very, very sad that a regime of this kind would wait until violent acts like that take place before they engage in dialogue. What they should be doing is involving whatever organization, civil society, ethnic nationalities, institutions, NGOs in a continuing dialogue. To lock up these leaders on this spurious charges of treason…What treason? What did they do? I mean, it’s deliberate. And unfortunately, it will exacerbate the clash between these groups and the federal government.
It’s a deliberate attempt to gag people. Ethnic nationality voices like Uwazurike, Dokubo, Fasehun, Gani. It’s no accident that they are charged with offences that are unbaillable. I was involved in the recent negotiation of the hostage saga and it is very sad, very, very sad that a regime of this kind would wait until violent acts like that take place before they engage in dialogue. What they should be doing is involving whatever organization, civil society, ethnic nationalities, institutions, NGOs in a continuing dialogue. To lock up these leaders on this spurious charges of treason…What treason? What did they do? I mean, it’s deliberate. And unfortunately, it will exacerbate the clash between these groups and the federal government.
How were you involved in the negotiation to free the hostage?
Later, I would tell you all about it.
Later, I would tell you all about it.
How do you see Gen. Babangida’s intention to vie for presidency in 2007?
The musical chairs being played by the military, let us make up our minds not to dance to this thing. Enough is enough. We are being insulted. Right, left and centre. What is it? People shoot their way to power, accumulating masses and masses and masses of resources through illegal means and using the assets to come and dominate our lives all over again. For me, the answer to that is so straightforward. And it is, Nigeria ronu o. (Nigeria, think twice).
The musical chairs being played by the military, let us make up our minds not to dance to this thing. Enough is enough. We are being insulted. Right, left and centre. What is it? People shoot their way to power, accumulating masses and masses and masses of resources through illegal means and using the assets to come and dominate our lives all over again. For me, the answer to that is so straightforward. And it is, Nigeria ronu o. (Nigeria, think twice).
You were particularly sad and angry at the burial of Beko Ransome-Kuti. Why was this?
I would want to send a message to students in this nation, that they should please learn a sense of occasion. Some students are constituting themselves into some kind of elites who are freed from all social strictures. I am referring to the funeral of Beko Ransome-Kuti—something that has been burning in my mind. There was an incident on that day which could have led to some serious violence. If the students in this country don’t understand what one means by sense occasion, they should please go back to their homes and be taught. What happened on the day of Beko’s funeral was a disgrace to the entire students of Nigeria—particularly to the LASU students.
They came there to disrupt noisily an occasion when one of their own, acknowledged protagonist was being honoured. I am talking about his funeral—what happened at Onikan Stadium, when a group of them formed themselves there, conducted themselves in the most despicable way. In no other society do I know that a group of students would arrogate to themselves the right to disrupt a solemn occasion like that. I felt that my family was insulted on that day by the students. That is a warning to them that it had better not happen again. This kind of conduct cannot be tolerated.
What happened on that day is not tolerated in decent society. Just because they have a grievance with Lagos State government. And these hours being used to send off somebody who is acknowledged as a fighter even for the students right, they came there and noisily, vulgarly disrupted it. I am demanding an apology from LASU. And until that apology is issued publicly, I don’t even want to hear about them in any kind of situation in which I am involved as a corporate body. I am not accusing the entire student body. But there is also something called collective responsibility. And what happened on that day was a disgrace. It’s obscene, it’s a desecration either within our own tradition or even in the most revolutionary culture you can think of. You just do not disrupt an occasion like that.
I would want to send a message to students in this nation, that they should please learn a sense of occasion. Some students are constituting themselves into some kind of elites who are freed from all social strictures. I am referring to the funeral of Beko Ransome-Kuti—something that has been burning in my mind. There was an incident on that day which could have led to some serious violence. If the students in this country don’t understand what one means by sense occasion, they should please go back to their homes and be taught. What happened on the day of Beko’s funeral was a disgrace to the entire students of Nigeria—particularly to the LASU students.
They came there to disrupt noisily an occasion when one of their own, acknowledged protagonist was being honoured. I am talking about his funeral—what happened at Onikan Stadium, when a group of them formed themselves there, conducted themselves in the most despicable way. In no other society do I know that a group of students would arrogate to themselves the right to disrupt a solemn occasion like that. I felt that my family was insulted on that day by the students. That is a warning to them that it had better not happen again. This kind of conduct cannot be tolerated.
What happened on that day is not tolerated in decent society. Just because they have a grievance with Lagos State government. And these hours being used to send off somebody who is acknowledged as a fighter even for the students right, they came there and noisily, vulgarly disrupted it. I am demanding an apology from LASU. And until that apology is issued publicly, I don’t even want to hear about them in any kind of situation in which I am involved as a corporate body. I am not accusing the entire student body. But there is also something called collective responsibility. And what happened on that day was a disgrace. It’s obscene, it’s a desecration either within our own tradition or even in the most revolutionary culture you can think of. You just do not disrupt an occasion like that.
