Chairman of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC), Mr Nuhu Ribadu explains why known currupt officials are still gallivanting across the country, implying that the corruption cases against people like the brutal former miliary dictator, Ibrahim Babangida, is not closed. He said all those who have stolen will account for their wealth.
The EFCC boss also said PDP chieftain Bode George is a small fry compared to Tafa Balogun, former Inspector-General of Police (IGP), Ministers and a Senate President he has brought to book, revealed that George is only enjoying his last few days of freedom. He spoke on this and other issues in an interview with Tony Orilade, Desmond Utomwen, Femi Ipaye, Photojournalist. Excerpts:
Q: Since your appointment as the Chairman of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC), would you say you have achieved much?
A: Well, I think we have done fairly well. Today, EFCC is just about three years and the work we have done here in EFCC is very clear, very evident that something has been achieved. As of today, we have had about 70 convictions in a country that never had one before the coming of EFCC. Today, the issue of corruption is at the centre of everything we are talking about in the country. Fighting corruption and the establishment of good governance became the foundation, the bedrock of reforms, policies and programmes of government. If you look into all these things, you will say that the work we have done so far is satisfactory. Again, the image problem we have suffered in the time past is being improved upon. The reform programmes of this government vis-à-vis the activities of the EFCC is a reflection that things have changed. We now have good rating before the international community and the international finance institutions. EFCC is one of the key agencies in Nigeria that the World Bank always refers to in everything they are doing that concerns Nigeria in particular and developing countries in general. I have had the opportunity of addressing officials of the World Bank more than six or seven times. I have been sent by them to lecture other countries on how things are done; the same thing with the IMF.
There are so many accolades out there, but in the last three months, there has been this perception that EFCC is actually an attack dog for Mr. President, especially as it relates to third term. You were seen to be attacking only the anti-third term elements, or people who were not in the good books of the President. Let me explain the background of where we are coming from and how things were in this country. We are coming from a very poor system, a failure of government, where there has been lack of trust and confidence by the citizenry in the government and leadership. Therefore, whatever you do is viewed with skepticism, with suspicion and so on. It is understandable to a large extent. We were coming from a background of deceit; at one point we called ourselves Maradona and all sorts of names were ascribed to leadership in this country. People have been psychologically brutalised and therefore their plight at the moment is understandable i.e., plight of being suspicious and seeing every action of the government with skepticism. Two, fighting corruption is the most difficult thing to do, because it amounts to fighting corrupt individuals who are movers and shakers of the society. Let me tell you, even in the media industry, if I tell you the source of money moved to establish some of these media houses, you will be shocked. And these are opinion moulders. They are threatened with some of the things going on now, and they will not just leave you and allow you to go after them. They will do whatever it takes to go after you and destroy you. Also, we are coming from a background of the total collapse of the justice system, total collapse of law and order, where with money you can compromise whatever. We in EFCC stood our ground that we don’t want your money, we cannot be compromised. We said whoever you are, nobody is above the law, and we meant it, and we have gone after powerful people and those people have realised that indeed, EFCC cannot be compromised. No matter the money you have, we are not interested in it. Rather, we would bring you to justice. So, whatever you do, somebody will give his/her own interpretation in Nigeria. When we started going after 419, they said we were attacking one particular section of the country.
When we were attacking corrupt bank officials, I was tagged the worst enemy of the North. Up till now, they still write all sorts of things about me. Now that we are going after corrupt politicians, they must cook up a story to justify their perceived persecution. Let me tell you, these guys we go after are extremely powerful. They cannot just sit down and allow you to come and do what you like with them, they won’t. There are people today who are in prison after taking well over $200million to $300 million dollars from them. There are other people also in prison after forfeiting billions of naira. You think such people will just sit down there and lick their wounds? No, they will surely fight back. The only thing they can do now is to try to give us image problem. Let me also tell you that we have taken [up] so many people close to government. In fact, up till now, we have not taken anybody from the opposition. But there is a reference point as to the selectiveness of your operation. There was an investigation you carried out on NPA. You submitted your report which was very indicting of the government, yet the culprit is gallivanting all over the country. People just believe that it is because he belongs to the ruling party that you have not been able to do something about his case. There is also the case of Societe Generale Bank owned by Dr. Olusola Saraki. I don’t think the Saraki case fits into this argument because I never knew him to be a friend of Obasanjo. In fact, I know that he is even in opposition to President Obasanjo. In the case of Bode George, let me tell you the history of the investigation. The Minister of Transport took a memo to the Federal Executive Council (FEC) to get approval for outstanding liabilities of NPA. These amounted to about N19 billion. The FEC deliberated on that memo and indeed questioned the bills which looked very suspicious. The FEC directed the formation of an administrative panel of investigation.The panel, which was chaired by EFCC, comprised the Secretary to the Government of the Federation, Ministry of Finance, office of the Head of Service and the Due Process Office. We were given six months to investigate and look at what happened in respect of the contracts. After the six months, we came up with our report. The report indicted several people, companies and the board and management of NPA. We submitted the report. For your information, that report is not a criminal investigation report, it is an administrative fact-finding report. It was after the submission of that report that EFCC was mandated to carry out a criminal investigation, and we are doing that now. You see, Nigerians would always want you to do things their own way, but we as law enforcement agents, we must always strive not take sides.
Q: So nobody told you not to touch Bode George?
A: At all. Who is Bode George? Did you not know that we touched an Inspector-General of Police? We brought him to justice. We touch ministers, we touch the Senate President, even the President himself, we look at his statements. Who is Bode George that we cannot touch? What is special about Bode George, especially when it comes to EFCC? When we are ready for him, we shall get him. Nigerians are just a bit too much in a hurry, it is just undue pressure. President Olusegun Obasanjo will be handing over next year, May 29. Do you think we can get somebody who is not corrupt to rule come 2007. I know that it is very possible; a corruption-free Nigerian will surely rule this country come 2007. I am also happy that the President has laid a solid foundation for the future of this country and on the basis of that, he is going to enthrone good governance, accountability and transparency in the politics of this country. He will steer the country towards ensuring that there is transparent and good leadership in 2007.
Q: You think we have somebody with both political and economic clout to assume leadership in 2007?
A: For goodness sake, this is a country of over 150 million. A country of talents, first class brains, with proven record of performance. With good opportunities and a chance to exhibit these qualities, Nigerians will never lack.
Q: Are you offering this hope to Nigerians?
A: Surely, there is hope. You see, I can understand you; I appreciate your concern. It all boils down to what I said before – where we are coming from. We are coming from a background of hopelessness and despondency. But considering the recent happenings, the political developments, the processes of political and democratic evolution show that we can actually do what is right. We have Governors who are being brought to justice; some members of the National Assembly are facing trial for corrupt practices. Honestly, there is no [other] African country where such a thing is happening, it is a good development. This is an indication that we can actually do things right; this includes of course, getting the leadership that will be different from what we had in the past. I must tell you that things are changing in this country, democratic institutions are being strengthened, even there is a great improvement in INEC, no doubt about that. So if you have such visible improvements, then you can really comfortably say that we shall get corruption-free individuals who will lead this country come 2007. Going by the mood of the country, I don’t think Nigerians will tolerate a corrupt politician to come and rule. It is just not possible. I believe in a dictum which says: You deceive the people sometimes; you cannot deceive the people all the time. Enough is enough of the deceit and mismanagement of public funds.
Q: Suppose corrupt people come up to ask people for their votes in the 2007 presidential race, how are you going to stop them?
A: We cannot say you cannot be a candidate, but we can investigate. We must investigate and tell the people the outcome of our investigation, because if we don’t do it, we would have failed in our responsibilities. We have been asked to come and fight economic and financial crimes and we must do our job to the best of our ability. We would never allow people who have stolen to use the same stolen resources to compromise the whole process and get into power. If we see them and we fold our arms, we are indirectly destroying ourselves because we have no other country except Nigeria.
Q: When you investigate, will you make the outcome available to Nigerians?
A: Well, at a particular time. We might not be able to come out with details; that is part of the professionalism of our job. We have to be cautious so as not to jeopardise our investigation. But it will get to a stage where our investigation will be made public. TheNEWS magazine has published a couple of investigations of corrupt Nigerians; these publications even helped our cause sometimes. If we have quality leadership – people who are not thieves as leaders, people who will manage our resources very well – you will not get 419 people, and we would not be wasting all our time and resources on fighting 419. A good system will ensure justice and fairness, there won’t be insecurity which is all over our country now. The lawlessness going on in the Niger Delta is as a result of bad leadership. We have to work towards getting a leadership that will be free of all the societal vices.
Q: Do you have a broad shoulder to carry out this Herculean task?
A: It’s not for me alone. It’s something all of us must work towards. It is collective work. We may be the one spearheading it, but it is a responsibility that lies on each and every one of us.
Q: There are some presidential aspirants who have ruled this country before; an example is IBB. If up till now you have not established any case of corruption against him, will Nigerians not think it is for political reasons you are now digging up facts just to nail his ambition?
A: We have come to know that if people want to protect themselves, they will always find a way of going about it. Was anything done on Ajudua, Nwude, or even Tafa Balogun until we did something? There will always be a time when something will start. Have you ever heard that an Inspector-General was tried and convicted? What EFCC is doing is happening for the first time in our history. We will not shy away from our responsibilities; it is a matter of time. The work we are doing will cover every individual, especially those who say they want to come to power. In England today, any politician who indicates interest in contesting election will undergo scrutiny. Everything about him will be made public. This is normal. Today, Nigeria has changed and we are going to do things that operate in the developed world. If you are interested in public office, you are opening your own cupboard. And if you have any skeleton, please don’t go there. In your interest, just hide and be enjoying yourself and pray we don’t get you even in your hiding, because nobody dey above the law. It’s not good for trouble to be sleeping make yanga go wake am. This is a new Nigeria. We are going to do things like in the developed world. No matter how highly placed you are, if you say you are interested in managing the human and material resources of this country, you must subject yourself to probe to ensure that you have the credentials. You must be ready to open up.
Q: So you are not intimidated?
A: Me, intimidated? By who? No way. I can only be intimidated by God.
Your investigation on the Presidential Library is still pending. Governor Orji Uzor Kalu’s petition against the
Q: President is still pending. Why is it taking time to come up with your reports?
A: These reports are almost ready. It’s not something we can rush. If you rush them you mess them up. It will take a while to do a thorough and good investigation especially if it is a very complicated case. Facts are not easily accessible to build up evidence, so one has to work tenaciously. All over the world, investigation lingers, sometimes for upwards of 10 to 15 to 20 years. But EFCC is just three years old and we have done so many cases; we have been able to bring people to justice. Today, we have over 400 criminal cases going on in our courts. We have over 70 convictions and I think it is fair for you to appreciate that within this short time, we have done well. By any standard in the world, we have done well. The entire Ministry of Justice in Nigeria does not have up to 70 convictions. Go to the Crown prosecution in London, they don’t have that record, go to FBI in U.S.A., they don’t have that record. We take our time to do what is right and at the time we arrive at a conclusion, we make our findings public. In the case of the library, of course from the beginning when the whole thing started, first and foremost our primary concern is to protect public money. When public money is misused or taken to the wrong place we follow it up. There is no single penny of government in that library project, not a single penny, and I challenge any Nigerian to come and tell us if government money is in the project. Two, Presidential Library is not an idea limited to Nigeria. We are trying to copy what is obtainable in the other parts of the world. Every past president in the US does has a presidential library and foundation. In fact, in the U.S. they take government money and give it to the foundation. In Nigeria, we have not done that. These are some of the things needed to promote governance for research. It’s a good development for government. It was not Obasanjo himself that took the money; he in fact contributed to the project. Obasanjo Farms also contributed to the project, and you know the constitution allows him to farm. Contributions came from the private sector. Sometimes people say they disagree with the timing, they say it should have been after leaving office. But that it happened while in office does not make it criminal. Remember too that it is happening for the first time. As we move forward, probably we would improve.
Q: You are after so many powerful people. Are you not afraid of the threat to your life?
A: I really do not know what this fear is. I have never had it. I do not have it. I believe in doing what is right. I am not careless, I think I am extremely careful and properly so. I really can justify all my actions and inactions. And these people know that they themselves are responsible for what is happening to them. As a human being, you should have respect for your life, but I believe in what I am doing because they are in the best interest of the country. Of course you can see that things are changing for the better. One of the reasons I joined the Police in spite of all odds is because I hate injustice. And I can tell you that for this cause, I can lay my life for this country. I can sacrifice anything and I have no regrets. This is all about choice. I have chosen to do this and I am going to give my all to it. Some people have chosen to be armed robbers, which is the most dangerous thing to do. Anything you decide to do in this life has its own hazards. Pilots face the hazard of plane crash, soldiers die in war, and policemen get killed in the course of their duty. Mine is just one of those hazards. I believe we must put our best into whatever we do and this is what I do. The job is dangerous. We have lost people in the course of the job but somebody will have to do the job and somebody must do it. To me, I think I am fortunate to do it. My friends think it is unfortunate, but the most important thing is the honesty and transparency you show in doing it, and that we have shown.
Q: With all these, do you hope to go into politics someday?
A: I am from a political family but by my nature, I am not the type that looks in that direction. My father was minister and even at the moment, my brother is a local government chairman. We are probably the biggest political family in the state. But this does not necessarily mean that I am going to be a politician. My law enforcement assignment now, I am sure, is very important to the country and me. It has never crossed my mind.
Q: But has there been any such request?
A: Every day.
Q: What are your plans after leaving this job? Do you hope to go back to the Police Force?
A: No. To be honest, I do not mind to be a normal person like every other Nigerian. For example, after service, I can go into private practice. I am a lawyer. I have been to court several times, I have had very successful prosecutions. I know with that I can eat and keep body and soul together. I can go back to school and become a lecturer. I appreciate those who live a very simple and humble life even after holding public office. One of the things that attracted me to Tunde Idiagbon was that after his office, he went quietly and lived peacefully in Ilorin. He had no time courting colleagues like some are doing. They want to always remain big men. They want to always remain the ones to call the shots, and arrogantly too. They want to remain the kingmakers and everything.
Q: While some would salute your courage in arraigning a former IGP who was your boss, others believe that you did it out of vengeance because he was said to have opposed your appointment. How true is this?
A: This is all part of the bid to discredit us. He was the Inspector-General of Police but he had no say or hand in my appointment. I was not even in the country when the President nominated me and the National Assembly confirmed me. In my position, I am not in any way answerable to the Inspector-General of Police. And I see no reason why anybody would say a thing like this. But whatever you do, someone is going to read meaning into it. Nobody could see exactly what the man did. This is somebody we took well over $150 million from. More so, I had a good working relationship with him. I am not aware of any malice. I am not sure if he decides to talk someday he will say this. Of course, I was his boy and he knew what I did.
Q: Is he off the hook now?
A: No. He still has a criminal case going on.
Q: Is it true that the six months sentence was a deal between the EFCC and Tafa?
A: Of course not. It is the court that does the sentencing and not the EFCC. Our own is to build a case and take it to the court for decision and sentencing. I think I should refer people to the judge to go and find out whatever about the sentencing.
Q: Is there anything in your background that prepared you to tackle corruption?
A: To be honest, I do not know. I would not even be able to tell you exactly but I think people are made the way they are. Well, maybe the background, the upbringing, the parental role and the individual trait. I cannot say I am different.
Have you considered doing a book on your experiences and all that?
A: Very well. I think some of the things we are putting in are what we have participated in and that can help shape the future.
Q: So there are people that are already working on it?
A: Oh yes.
Q: Lately, nothing has been heard about the case of Gov. Joshua Dariye. Is it over?
A: No. It is not over.
Q: So what is the latest?
A: He is a fugitive in the entire world. He dare not step an inch out of Nigeria. Here, he is protected by the law but a day will come when the protection will be over. Let’s pray that God give us long life to see it. It is not over.
Q: Is it true that you are withholding the 10per cent commission (about $650,000) due to the ABZ in the recovery job they did for you?
A: These are things people are doing daily to take money away from government. It is a fraudulent scam – lies, stealing – they come out with all sorts of fraudulent ideas to take money from government. This is someone who came to us that he had an idea to recover money and since we do not close our doors to information, we listened to him. And we have been recovering the money. We have recovered over N5 billion from people. But we do not think that should be a licence to take money away from government illegally. Never! When he worked for us, we paid him for the services that he rendered to the tune of hundreds of thousands of naira. But nobody has the right to take from revenue money. This is for the government. Should you then say that we that have been recovering this money should also collect 10 per cent. Some things are unbelievable in this country. Before he came here, he had gone to several law enforcement agencies and they never gave him a penny. He went to the police, FIRS and all that as far back as seven years ago and it has become a business to him. He has tried everything – he blackmailed us but nothing can change the truth.
Q: But the Minister of Solid Minerals wrote a letter saying the money should be paid. What do you say to that?
A: But she did not say 10 per cent commission. The Minister of Solid Minerals in her capacity as Chairman of EITI called all of us and after the presentation, she said we should pay him something for the job done but did not say we should give him 10 per cent. And to us, we had already done that. We had paid him for the entire job done. I have all the receipts. Should I also then ask for 10 per cent of the N5 billion that we recovered? Maybe President Obasanjo should also ask for 10 per cent of the billions that were recovered from the Abacha loot. Maybe you (TheNEWS) should also be paid 10 per cent for the exposures you have made. I remember TheNEWS broke the 419 news of the Anajembas upon which we launched investigations. We recovered over $100 million from the case.
